The Fizz #9: Pascaline Lepeltier and the hybrid grapes that make up American wine history
In this interview, Pascaline and I talk hybrid grapes, the history of American winemaking, and the future of wine education.
For The Fizz #9, I sat down with Pascaline Lepeltier over Zoom to talk about hybrid grapes, the history of American winemaking, and the future of wine education. Pascaline was very kind to meet with me after just coming back from the Loire Valley, where she is from, and before re-opening her restaurant where she is a partner, Racines NY, which had been shuttered due to COVID-19. At Racines NY, Pascaline manages a list of over 2,000 bottles, many of which are made with minimal intervention. She’s also a winemaker—Pascaline and her business partner Nathan Kendall are behind the chëpíka brand, making wine out of hybrid grapes in the Finger Lakes.
Pascaline holds many wine credentials, but is most noted to me for her openness and obvious joy that wine brings into her life. Her dedication to promoting wines that are made with an eye to biodiversity, sustainability, and quality is inspiring, and her commitment to excellent wine service is worth looking up to.
Before we start, hybrid grapes are crosses between vitis vinifera (the species of grape that is used to make many of the wines you’re familiar with—Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, for example) and vitis labrusca (the species of grape native to North America, often used to produce table grapes like the Concord). If you’re not familiar with hybrid grapes, check out this beginner’s guide to hybrids. Wine Folly has a great guide here.
Margot: You and Nathan Kendall started the chëpíka project focusing on the native grapes of the labrusca family. Why is it important for you to use grapes like Delaware and Catawba?
Pascaline: The project started in 2015 because I was looking to get an organic certified wine in New York for the restaurant where I worked. I couldn’t find any at the time. There were several projects in Long Island, but no-one was certified. I spoke with Nathan about potentially starting our own New York based project. He looked into it, came back and said we can forget about vinifera. What we can do is try to convince hybrid growers to farm organically for us and we can pre-pay for the grapes. I’ve been to the Finger Lakes and tasted some hybrids but I never had a great experience. In 2013, though, I was starting to work with a wine from La Garagista, so I knew about the Frontenac and Marquette grapes, and I really liked those wines. Nathan gave me a book about the history of the Finger Lakes which was really inspiring.
The grower we spoke to said they didn’t want to convert to organic, so Nathan found out that in fact there was one vineyard that was organically certified selling table grapes since 1971, organically certified since 1971 too. They were growing Delaware and Catawba. The vineyard had a root system that was over 100 years old—when they bought the vineyard, the original owner said it was more than 70 years old. It made absolute sense for us—we’re working with grapes that belong to the ecosystem of the Finger Lakes, since way longer than vinifera grapes. They seemed to be perfectly suited to the environment. If we really care about how we vinify them, we knew there was something special we’d be able to do here.
The idea was to make not only organic grape wine, but also to make it as naturally as possible. We thought that sparkling seemed to be the best way to go because people were making sparkling wines like this over a hundred years ago. If people were making wine at that time with very few tools and technical knowledge, we should do the same thing and make sparkling wine as well. Nathan found some bulk wine made with Catawba and Delaware from other wineries, we wanted to try it and see what it was like. It was yeasted, sulfured, conventionally grown, but we tried to make it sparkling just to see what it would feel like. We liked it and said okay, let’s try a ton of each variety and start to make wine. We didn’t say anything to anyone, we just wanted to see what would happen. After 7 months in the bottle, fermentation was super fast, we called some friends in France and California who were making top pét-nat and asked them what they were doing. We took their advice and chëpíka was born like that.
It made so much more sense—it went way further than just organic wine. The idea was, I’m in New York, how can I support as much as possible the agricultural and food system of New York without compromising by forcing production that shouldn’t be there. We’re in an environment that is extraordinarily aggressive for vitis vinifera. Northeast America is the birthplace of mildew and Black Rot—you have so many diseases that vinifera is very sensitive to—trying to grow vinifera here is very difficult. In fact, though, we have these hybrid grapes that DNA shows are vinifera crossed with labrusca, and these grapes have been there for almost 300 years. They are suited for New York and they’re doing well, they’re happy. Let’s try to make something with hybrids as a path to reconsider what it means to really grow sustainably and locally.
M: Do you lease your vineyard and farm it yourself or do you just have a good relationship with that grower?
P: We have a good relationship—it’s a family, they’ve been growing organically since 1971. Nathan goes to see them often. They basically do almost nothing with these grapes. You still need to treat them a bit—maybe one copper treatment, but there is no product otherwise whatsoever. They don’t mow between the vines—there are a lot of wild plants growing. It’s really hands off. Just enough to have the grapes grow with no product. They use a water and vinegar mixture if there’s too much competition with grass. That’s it.
M: You’re making sparkling wine with these grapes solely. Why is that?
P: These two grapes have a very pungent high acid structure when they are ripe—a lot of tartaric and malic acid. Acidity can drop very quickly, though, and then they’re way too powerfully aromatic. What we decided to do, to make wine without additions, is to focus more on the sparkling side. That makes so much sense for the Finger Lakes. If you want to make wine every year, sparkling is the way to go. With ripening being so challenging, all of the botrytis pressure at the end of the cycle, it can be very difficult. If we don’t want to stress the vine or add anything, it’s better for us to pick a little early and make it into sparkling wine. We have almost a month difference in picking time between the two grapes. Delaware is usually mid September and Catawba is mid October to late October. We wanted to blend them in the beginning, but then realized it was just impossible.
M: Can you talk about the history of winemaking with these grapes in the Finger Lakes? What about that is interesting to you?
P: Well, Delaware is almost disappearing—there’s almost no Delaware in the Finger Lakes now. We’re trying to save the grape and we might try to plant a bit of Delaware to ensure there’s still some around. The winemaking really started in Ohio with Nicolas Longworth who decided to make sparkling wine—it was a time when Champagne started to get very popular.
[In 1813, Nicolas Longworth started vineyards along the banks of the Ohio River, hiring German immigrants familiar with winemaking. He started making sparkling Catawba which ended up being a huge national success. Check out this poem, written in 1857 about sparkling Catawba by the Ohio River. Learn more about Ohio’s wine history in this Eater article.]
A lot of French guys came over in the 1850s to make sparkling wine in the US at the time. They came to the Finger Lakes because there were a lot of native grapes there, there was opportunity for these grapes to grow really well there. You can still find photos of the end of the 19th century with the hills covered with grapes. There was a frenzy for sparkling Catawba that started in the 1850s. A friend of mine found a publication from this time mentioning an ad for a wine shop selling fancy Riesling and sparkling Catawba on Chambers Street, where my restaurant is now. [laughs] To capture more of the market, some producer created a sub-address with the world “Rheims” in it—they could say they were making New York Champagne from Rheims. The railroad helped a lot, too. They could then export these wines. Then Prohibition was the big hit, which led to returning the industry of the Finger Lakes towards grape jam and juice. At the same time, California started to explode as a market and they were working with vinifera. They didn’t have the phylloxera issue like the East Coast did. Once phylloxera did hit, there wasn’t enough business or interest or money in the Finger Lakes since California’s industry was booming.
M: You’ve been in New York for 12 years now. Do you find that the culture of winemaking in the Finger Lakes is changing to be more friendly to minimal intervention and organic agriculture?
P: It’s changing a lot as a whole. There are individuals that have been pushing for that and paving the way. There’s more exposure than ever for Finger Lakes wine now. The New York Wine and Grape Foundation is pushing a more sustainable program in the region that is geared toward the grower. We have to remember, it’s not like in Europe. We don’t have the majority of winemakers owning their land—they still have to buy from growers, so it’s a whole different logic. The sustainable program that was started in Long Island will be increased to the whole state. They understand it’s the future. We need to face the reality that it’s not an easy climate to grow in a natural way.
[The New York Wine and Grape Foundation funded a sustainable winegrowing course for Long Island winemakers. Find out more about that here.]
M: Do you think that because it’s not easy, hybrids are going to be New York’s main focus?
P: You know, hybrids are already 75% of Finger Lakes plantings. They’re here. You treat them less, yes, but depending on the hybrids, you still may need to treat them. The new hybrids, they can’t guarantee that you won’t have to treat them. They might be resistant to one specific disease, but today we’re really seeing a lot of other vineyard diseases. In the end, if you have an unbalanced viticulture—overcropping, over fertilizing, grafting, you’re still working with weak vines which are susceptible to disease.
There are more and more people growing hybrids—they were used to make entry-level basic wines for a long time, they weren’t driven to be quality wines with a sense of place. That’s going to change, but it has to be a hand in hand dynamic with vinifera. We’re not used to the balance of hybrids—it’s a very different ratio of acidity to alcohol, for example. I think the more producers are taking these grapes seriously and aging them, the more people will be interested to give them a chance. It costs less to produce them and some are getting very good yields.
The fact that a country like France decided to ban hybrids from appellations didn’t help at all. That happened in 1935. We never knew about the ability of hybrids to be linked to origins, that idea of terroir—they never got a chance. They were banned not because of their quality, but because of political reasons. Until 1954, one third of France was planted in hybrids—there were more than 400k hectares of hybrids in France, which is almost the total planting of today. We never gave them the chance they should have had. That’s been changing over the last 20+ years in France, Germany, Switzerland.
M: It feels like hybrids are a very American endeavor for that reason, because we’re embracing them more as American DNA.
P: The very first hybrids were made in America—colonists couldn’t grow vinifera. They tried. They realized there were grapes growing here and started to cross them. It was never pushed to such level that Concord, Catawba, Delaware. There was a second wave of hybrids—Isabella, Noah. When phylloxera arrived, they were created to fight the destruction of vineyards in France. Thousands of hybrids were created. The third wave is what we’re seeing today—with all the new technology at the DNA level, they can try to get the gene they want. This is called multiple cross-pollination. The idea is to have a very little amount of the American varieties, just enough to make them resistant to phylloxera and certain diseases, with the rest being vinifera. We need to be careful when talking about hybrids so we can name them correctly. Different grapes were created in different times with different tools and for different reasons.
M: Where are you seeing the future for chëpíka? Are there new grapes you want to try? Different styles?
P: We’re limiting the project to the quality of the grapes we can find. In ‘18, for example, we only did a rosé. We couldn’t pick properly for sparkling—botrytis destroyed the Delaware. We’re going to do a new grape this year—it’s an old new grape, really. Our production is so small and there’s so much more work to be done. We need to invest in new tools—everything is done by hand pretty much. Next year we’ll have a new wine—we haven’t made it yet, but we’re pretty sure about how it will go. It’ll be a still wine and will allow us to grow the production but still keep it affordable as much as possible, and with the same philosophy.
M: That’s exciting!
P: Yeah, I’m excited too. I’m sure it’s going to be good.
M: How do you see American wine culture changing as you’ve been here?
P: It’s changing incredibly fast. When I arrived, even in New York, wine was just not cool enough to be drunk by young people. In 2009 or 2010, wine was still an idea for a certain class. It was thee time of Screaming Eagle and all the big names. I remember struggling to find natural wine and discovering Tony Coturri—I was like wow you’re my savior! Within twelve years, it has been an unbelievable change. There’s this energy in America—this is what I want to do, I’ll do anything I can to make it happen, I’ll learn. It’s growing very fast—sometimes I think maybe too fast. There’s a new style and a new grape every year.
The problem is the access. The cost and the price are an issue. A lot of the problems we’re seeing socially, economically, racially with wine—the fee to enter this world is very expensive, whether you’re making it or you’re drinking it. Wine costs so much money in America, and I still don’t understand why. It’s a big issue and it’ll continue to be a big issue for a while.
M: Do you think it has to do with the fact that land here is just more expensive, or is that not true?
P: Viticultural land is indeed very very expensive—at the price point of some of the most famous wine regions in France. The farming side seems to be very expensive here as well. When I see the cost of what my friends pay for a ton of grapes here, it’s unbelievable. If I ask the same question in the Loire, we’re really at a ratio of one to ten. We’re talking biodynamic practices with teams of people working—I have more research to do here, this is me just observing from afar. There are so many undiscovered terroir still in America, so many lands to be planted, even in California. Buying a vineyard on the Coast though, it’s just so expensive. It’s a vicious circle of who can make it, who can drink it.
M: It’s inspiring all of these co-ops coming together in the states. I was talking to Rosalind Reynolds for The Fizz who works with Pax, who was saying that if she were to buy her own land out there and her own equipment, it would be extremely prohibitive. All of these co-ops are the United States' way of responding to those costs.
P: Absolutely. It feels like the question of ownership over the land—it’s a fundamental question of society. I hope there will be a solution.
M: I see people growing grapes now in Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire. That’s part of the answer too—where else can we go to make good wine where you can sell it for a price people can afford?
P: Yes, and that’s also the way it was done in Europe. It’s not a new problem, but we have to be very aware that there’s a whole industry behind the cost. I’m talking about the nursery, the equipment, the product. A whole universe grew around something that was made for a way lower cost, in a simpler way, just 100 years ago. We have this word in French phagocyter, things that are eating around—this is what’s happening. You’re adding cost that may not be useful. Maybe one of the solutions will be starting with very little, the End of Nowhere folks—they did everything with friends, for example. That do it yourself way, it will hopefully inspire other people to do it in that way, and hopefully that then inspires the market.
M: You mentioned accessibility being an issue in the states. Are there issues that are important to you that can move our industry forward?
P: There is a lot to tackle, and it’s all interconnected. It’s about how to be the most efficient at each level to be a part of the movement for change. I’m trying to see exactly where I can have a big impact in the background, but also continue to speak my mind. Whether it’s mentorship, donation, or helping to funnel money to organizations I feel are important. Not everybody is good on the forefront or being loud on Instagram every day. I’m trying to mobilize my network of people on the funding side. I’m also re-thinking how education should look, how we should teach about wine. I’m writing a book about that right now.
A lot of folks do fantastic things around accessibility to knowledge—every time I can be a part of that, I’m more than happy to. I think there’s something to say about what we’re taught, how we’re teaching. New approaches that are way more empowering and not as limiting. I’m trying to lead by example in New York. I have to admit I’ve been very impressed by so many talents—I was in my little New York bubble, and it’s easy to get caught up in your own environment. I’ve been meeting some incredible leaders over the last year and a half. It’s more about understanding what their vision is and to help them in the background, by finding the right sponsors, money, network, etc.
M: I can’t wait to read your book, I think that’s so interesting. What is wine education? It doesn’t have to look like what we were used to.
P: The way that expertise has been self nurtured in the wine world is so narrow minded and a one-dimensional vision. For me the most important part is missing. I really believe people in the wine business have a very key role to play around the food problems that we have. Wine is such a powerful tool to gather people and make an impression. As wine people, we have a big part to play in letting people know that we have to change our food system. We start by how we drink wine, the type of wine we drink, the farming of the grapes, how things are done in the wineries.
Grapes make the most profit agriculturally—you don’t make as much money on carrots or tomatoes, for example. The system right now is still promoting the same industrial way of farming, the same type of marketing driven agriculture. We self-nurture that and it needs to change. It has to change, but that means fighting against big industry. There’s a lot of energy right now, but we’re missing the part about education. How do we teach in a way that is empowering, a way where wine professionals are able to ask questions and find new solutions and be creative? Not to tell them you’re a good professional if you know that Châteauneuf-du-Pape has 13 grape varieties—what’s the point of that?
M: When’s your book coming out? How far along are you?
P: I have to finish it for November [laughs]. It’ll come out next year hopefully. I’m writing it in French, but it’ll be translated right away.
M: Amazing, I can’t wait to read it. Thanks so much for your time!
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Non-profit pairing: Pascaline supports Wheeling Forward, an organization that “help people with disabilities experience life to the fullest and enable them to see possibility where others see insurmountable obstacles.” Learn more about this important organization here.
Stay up to date with what Pascaline is up to on her Instagram and follow along with chëpíka here. Learn more about chëpíka and their wines on their website.
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